they try to make us be desegregated, make us equal, and as a result, we hurt the very people we tried to help. this is what happens when government gets in the way. >> guest: that's, yeah, i mean, it's not necessarily what i was trying to get across. >> host: it's not absurd justification. >> guest: right. i think that, you know, the issue with that is it who is running government and for whose benefit. that's what happened. the problem was decisions were made with, for the most part, with a certain con sitwent sigh -- constituency in keeping them happy. that was not just the white middle class, by the way. there's this, we're trying to keep the black civil rights liberal class who fought for desegregation happy too, and there was that contingent in louisville fighting for desegregation intensely all these years as well, and so, yeah, in terms of what works, i think, you know, i listen to a lot of people every day talking about to me about what works, and i don't have an answer because i spent a lot of time in really good schools that seem to be working. there's also something that's,